motoring|underground

motoring|underground (http://www.motoringunderground.com/forum/index.php)
-   Featured Discussions (http://www.motoringunderground.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=47)
-   -   Discuss: The TEAMMIGHTYMINIZ Intake Shootout presented by motoring|underground (http://www.motoringunderground.com/forum/showthread.php?t=702)

iDiaz 01-29-2006 12:52 AM

Discuss: The TEAMMIGHTYMINIZ Intake Shootout presented by motoring|underground
 
What's up? :D

Wong 01-29-2006 01:07 AM

The Artical is great guys!! Job well done!:tu:

iDiaz 01-29-2006 02:12 AM

Thanks Nick! :D

CANYON MINI 01-29-2006 02:51 AM

Nice work guy's ! :tu:

Dr Obnxs 01-29-2006 03:39 AM

Couple comments....
 
First off, lucky guy for such a hot base car. Mine sure isn't the "pick of the litter". I'm a bit jelous.

Second, good job, to a point. More motor parameters should have been logged, to make sure the car was in identical base states. The Motronic system is like a supermodel with a personality disorder. Lots can effect it's behaviours.

Third, I too have not been able to reproduce the same magnitude of gains that are claimed on dynos. I use a G-Tech, not a dyno, to better replicate real-world air flow. The fan on the car is a bit of a help, but definantly not real world. But at least it was the same for each car!

Overall, good job. But if you do it again, get some more data loggin (A/F etc), and do 4-5 pulls per configuration. Lastly return to base so you can make sure that base numbers repeat, and baseline drift isn't an issue.

Two other comments. Make a table Product Cost HP gain, $/hp, torque gain, $/ft-lb

Make an overlay graph. It's not all about peak numbers. It's really about area under the curve.

Matt

J0kER 01-29-2006 03:42 PM

.....:::::great werk::::.....
 
....... the write up is excellent to finally put sum of these non believin' f00ls to rest:D :jayne:

iDiaz 01-29-2006 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by J0kER
....... the write up is excellent to finally put sum of these non believin' f00ls to rest:D :jayne:

Thanks, j0ker!

iDiaz 01-29-2006 03:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Obnxs
First off, lucky guy for such a hot base car. Mine sure isn't the "pick of the litter". I'm a bit jelous.

Nooo s***. My '04 MINI only managed to pull off 160hp, despite an AGS and exhaust. MINI should teardown Hollis' MCS and find out what the heck they did different, and apply it to the rest of the line. ;)

Quote:

Second, good job, to a point. More motor parameters should have been logged, to make sure the car was in identical base states. The Motronic system is like a supermodel with a personality disorder. Lots can effect it's behaviours.
Even if we had logged it, it would have proven difficult to return the car to absolutely identical base states each time. We feel that resetting that Motronic system before each test, including base line, ensured that the engine was operating with the same fuel/timing maps for each intake.

Quote:

Third, I too have not been able to reproduce the same magnitude of gains that are claimed on dynos. I use a G-Tech, not a dyno, to better replicate real-world air flow. The fan on the car is a bit of a help, but definantly not real world. But at least it was the same for each car!
Your last sentence is exactly what we had in mind. We weren't as interested in absolute numbers as we were in the relative differences between the three intakes and stock, so spending the extra time on a busy dyno day to try to replicate optimal conditions for power would have been trying at best, impossible at worst. I've heard G-Techs aren't that accurate anyway, so I'll stick with our Dyno Dynamics results.

Quote:

Overall, good job. But if you do it again, get some more data loggin (A/F etc), and do 4-5 pulls per configuration. Lastly return to base so you can make sure that base numbers repeat, and baseline drift isn't an issue.
I agree with doing more pulls, but as this is a comparison test of intakes, it doesn't really matter whether we do two or twenty, as long as each intake gets the same number of pulls. Returning to base would have involved installing the AGS (2-3 hours), removing the AGS and taking it back to stock (2-3 hours), and reinstalling the AGS again (2-3 hours), as this is the intake Hollis ended up keeping. That would have taken an entire extra day at the dyno and 4-6 extra hours from our installer, so for time and cost restraints, this really would not have been a reasonable option to pursue.

Quote:

Two other comments. Make a table Product Cost HP gain, $/hp, torque gain, $/ft-lb

Make an overlay graph. It's not all about peak numbers. It's really about area under the curve.

Matt
Hm... I may take you up on that suggestion. Thanks for the advice. :)

Nardo 01-29-2006 06:05 PM

excellent write up Ivan. I know people were anxious to see this, but I'm glad you and the rest of our staff took the time to make sure everything was written up perfectly.

nomonstersinme 01-29-2006 07:31 PM

very good article ivan!
i was actually surpised but glad to see alta as the winner and it sounds like a very fair comparison. I was also really surprised to see how well the M7 AGS did. I was under the impression that intakes couldn't produce that much more HP.
the only thing that confused me was how surprised you were about Hollis's car.. were you surprised that it out performed other 05's or earlier years? 2005+ has 168 hp stock, according to mini.

Nardo 01-29-2006 08:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nomonstersinme
the only thing that confused me was how surprised you were about Hollis's car.. were you surprised that it out performed other 05's or earlier years? 2005+ has 168 hp stock, according to mini.

i guess other people don't get this number (or even close to it) when they do a basline dyno. i was looking over on NAM and everyone else is surprised about Hollis' stock dyno as well.

RFIbanez 01-29-2006 08:19 PM

Great article! Maybe someone put the JCW kit on Hollis' car at the factory by mistake?

iDiaz 01-29-2006 08:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nomonstersinme
the only thing that confused me was how surprised you were about Hollis's car.. were you surprised that it out performed other 05's or earlier years? 2005+ has 168 hp stock, according to mini.

Thanks, y'alls. :D

The published factory specifications for an '05 are 168 hp at the crank. We saw 168 hp at the wheels! The commonly accepted figure for how much power is lost between the engine and the wheels, thanks to a lot of the energy being converted into heat through friction in the drivetrain, is 15%, so that would place Hollis' car at ~198 hp at the crank, or 30 hp higher than what the factory claims his car should make. :eek:

hollis3 01-29-2006 10:06 PM

If I recall correctly, my car had about 1-2HP lower than another 05 with the JCW.

I do not deny that I got very lucky. :tu:

simplygriff 01-30-2006 04:18 PM

What was the build date for your car hollis? Could just be that dark silver... ;)
-G

nomonstersinme 01-30-2006 07:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by iDiaz
Thanks, y'alls. :D

The published factory specifications for an '05 are 168 hp at the crank. We saw 168 hp at the wheels! The commonly accepted figure for how much power is lost between the engine and the wheels, thanks to a lot of the energy being converted into heat through friction in the drivetrain, is 15%, so that would place Hollis' car at ~198 hp at the crank, or 30 hp higher than what the factory claims his car should make. :eek:


ah ok gotcha! :tu:
that is impressive then! i wonder what my car was stock. should have dynoed it before i added the pulley.

MINImort 01-30-2006 07:27 PM

Amanda, we will need to have a dyno day so you can check it out, granted you already have the pulley

MINImort 01-30-2006 07:29 PM

I am glad that my extra $$ spent on the M7 AGS was worth it though. Good thing I got it for less than a Helix!

nomonstersinme 01-30-2006 07:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MINImort
Amanda, we will need to have a dyno day so you can check it out, granted you already have the pulley

yeah we do.. where is there a dyno around here? only one i knew of was Yarrow but he sold his... (did you tell me that?)

MINImort 01-30-2006 07:48 PM

Yarrow sold the dyno? That's always good. There is a place in Sterling MA that has one, there was a pulley party there in November I think

benthevegan 01-31-2006 12:15 AM

Damn good article guys!:tu: I'm glad everything finally worked out and you were able to post the results.

I remember Ivan telling me that hollis got a strong MINI but damn:eek: ........I didn't know it was that strong. Just wait til he starts heavily modding it.:jayne:

jkagan 01-31-2006 12:17 AM

Nice article Ivan.

I can only imagine that hell that will break loose if you try to right about something more sophisticated than an intake. For God's sake, please stay away from the multi-link suspension!

iDiaz 01-31-2006 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jkagan
Nice article Ivan.

I can only imagine that hell that will break loose if you try to right about something more sophisticated than an intake. For God's sake, please stay away from the multi-link suspension!

Thanks Jon!

Fortunately, far fewer people feel they have a solid understanding of the multi-link suspension, so I'd probably be much safer writing an article about that. :D

Siddhartha 02-26-2006 10:29 PM

Nice writeup, Ivan. Well researched and well executed. I am just disappointed that your comparo did not include the 2 stage JCW intake, even as a benchmark. JCW is a MINI tuner too. I would have loved to see the specs on that.

Regards,
Sid

hollis3 02-26-2006 10:55 PM

We attempted to get a JCW. We only worked with the companies that agreed to participate, and could not get a response from them.

iDiaz 02-27-2006 05:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Siddhartha
Nice writeup, Ivan. Well researched and well executed. I am just disappointed that your comparo did not include the 2 stage JCW intake, even as a benchmark. JCW is a MINI tuner too. I would have loved to see the specs on that.

Regards,
Sid

Thanks, Sid! There are a few others we would have liked to have tested, but unfortunately, it proved difficult to get some companies to provide us with a production intake system to test on. I'd really be curious to see how that two-stage JCW works, too. Do you think that change in the induction path really contributes to power, or do you think it's more of a sound enhancement, providing quiet comfort while cruising, but opening up for more spirited driving?

Siddhartha 02-28-2006 04:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by iDiaz
Do you think that change in the induction path really contributes to power, or do you think it's more of a sound enhancement, providing quiet comfort while cruising, but opening up for more spirited driving?

When I installed a K&N CAI in my '04 JCW, the hot mod was to cut a hole in the partition to allow access to more air from the plenum under the grille beneath the driver's side of the windshield. When I got my '05 with the JCW airbox, the installation included removal of that partition and an ECU controlled door at the back of the airbox that opens at 4500 RPM, allowing access to the air coming into the grille. Sure you can hear it when it opens, but the intake then gets more air to move down the line to the supercharger. So yes, I think it does more than sound nice. How much it helps I don't know. And how it compares in effectiveness to the other intakes in the test is also unknown. It doesn't kick you in the pants when it opens, there's just that steady rush of acceleration that goes right up to 7250 arpies (and maybe beyond).

I'm sure JCW has test data somewhere, but I can't find it. That's why I would have liked to have seen your tests include it. But regardless, I liked the way you conducted the test.

iDiaz 02-28-2006 04:48 PM

Yeah, I kind'a figured as much. The problem with testing that sort of feature is that it's on a stationary dyno, so much like the cowl mods of the Alta and Helix intakes, it's pretty much impossible to replicate how much it would really help in the real world. What's it use to actuate the flap? Vacuum? Electric motor?

Thanks again, dude! :)

Siddhartha 02-28-2006 07:47 PM

I don't know the answer to that question, but I know someone who does. Back soon.

"The control of the flap is electronic.

Interestingly, determination of engine RPM for this operation is not performed by the main engine computer, rather by circuitry in a little box which is located on the back of the new cowl that is installed along with the JCW intake. Once those electrics are satisfied that 4500 RPM is reached power is sent to an electric motor to open the flap. I believe there is a mechanism which keeps the extra air flowing until revs drop below 4000 RPM."

Adam 05-21-2007 09:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Siddhartha (Post 19697)
I don't know the answer to that question, but I know someone who does. Back soon.

"The control of the flap is electronic.

Interestingly, determination of engine RPM for this operation is not performed by the main engine computer, rather by circuitry in a little box which is located on the back of the new cowl that is installed along with the JCW intake. Once those electrics are satisfied that 4500 RPM is reached power is sent to an electric motor to open the flap. I believe there is a mechanism which keeps the extra air flowing until revs drop below 4000 RPM."

Actually, having taken one apart I'm pretty sure it's a vacuum solenoid that actuates the flap. The vacuum however is controled by an electronic signal. You also have to tap into the tach signal so the circutry in the box probably isn't that complex.

jC 05-22-2007 01:18 AM

http://mccrappy.com/wp-content/uploa...ibrillator.jpg

It's alive!!!! It's alive!!!!!

glnr13 05-22-2007 02:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jC (Post 157179)
It's alive!!!! It's alive!!!!!

hahahaha... this thread be back from the dead.

Bilbo Baggins 02-22-2008 11:33 PM

Did the overlays ever get done to compare the area under the curve?

From what I can see the stock intake has a stronger midrange thru 5,400 rpm than any of the others. It would be nice to see the actual overlays.

Both the hp and torque curves of the stock intake look stronger in the 3000 - 6000 range. The center of the torque curve of the stock intake is much stronger and flatter which would translate into better launches out of corners and easier passing.

Anyway we could see the actual overlays? iDiaz or hollis3, either of you feel up to it?


All times are GMT. The time now is 04:44 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
2005 motoring|underground, all rights reserved.