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Safety & Race Preparation Roll cages, harnesses, seats, weight reduction, etc. Anything pertaining to taking your car to the highest level of performance.

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  #16  
Old 02-11-2012, 09:36 PM
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Not a single person has pointed to the WHY anyone is risking their life and /or endangering others by not following racing governing body rules on a street car.

A comment that you will "snap your neck and back" if you use a race harness on a street car with the belts above shoulder height in violation of race rules does not EXPLAIN WHY doing so will kill or injure you in a STREET car.

Further it actually DOES matter that it is a street car. Crash conditions are likely to be very different and in most cases less severe in a STREET car than in a RACE car. (unless your "racing" is driving around a bunch of cones in a parking lot against a clock like SCCA SOLO events)

Making statements as they are fact like "you will die if you use plastidip" without at least citing a source makes the discussion half-assed at best (even if you should die for using plastidip). A link to a rule isn't citing a source on a reason a safety device has to be a certain way, sorry it's just pointing to a rule that is specific to that organization.

Further not a single one of the naysayers even addressed Chase's comment regarding the use of a belt system with some stretch.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chase View Post
I too did alot of research before getting my roll bar and harnesses and the mounting angles were nearly unanimous for that type of harness. I know that they can be mounted higher if the harness has a certain "stretch" during impact, but i know the R.J.S. doesnt have that.

However, i am not discounting your knowledge, i just wanted to see if you knew and want you to be safe
I am also noticing the obvious disregard of the design of a typical shoulder belt as found in our cars from the factory. (as proven to not kill you by the USDOT, NHTSA and other organizations) A system which unless you are over 6'3" cannot be routed in such a way as to be even with or up to 20 degrees below the shoulder height. Is there some give in the shoulder belt in your car? Yes, normally but the acceleration of an impact locks them tight giving you very limited forward motion before locking. (Kind of like a harness system with some stretch.)

Are race harness and shoulder belt systems different? Yes. Do they work differently? Yes-but only for a few milliseconds and the factory restraint can allow your torso to twist which would increase the likelihood of injury to your spine and yet that doesn't happen in most cases in a street car.

Maybe before discounting something completely people need to think for themselves and look at all possible options not just those they are familiar with.


Most importantly:
Quote:
Originally Posted by el diablito View Post
don't take anyones word on your safety!
Especially anyone who openly says they don't have a problem with someone paralyzing themselves, not someone I would trust on the subject of safety.

If you plan on buying ANY harness and ANY mounting system for that harness make sure they are designed to work TOGETHER and you shouldn't have an issue.
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Originally Posted by hardingsan View Post
why do i have a feeling that's gonna make it into someone's sig...?

I have neither of these cars anymore. 2014 Jetta Hybrid, 2014 Countryman All4 S now.
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  #17  
Old 02-11-2012, 10:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by el diablito View Post
Correct............. last thing you want to do is listen to people who no NOTHING of racing equipment............
Quote:
Originally Posted by gnatster View Post



Wreck wearing them the way you have the belts configured and you really will be spineless.
So in the interest of racing safety........

To Jan and Nathan, or anyone racing their car:

Did you remove or alter the air bag system in your STREET MINI?

If answer no: Then you have "created" an unsafe condition because the MINIs air bag system was not designed for roll bars, harness bars.... etc.


If yes: Then you removed part or all of the SAFETY system installed on the MINI and thus making it less safe then designed for the street.

Jan: How many of your engine performance parts on your so called "street mini" that you take to the track are safety wired? If none then you sell parts that could fail and become potentially dangerous to you and spectators? If yes, then why have you not mentioned that when you advertise and sell parts?

Nathan or Jan, did either of you contact HARDBARUSA and talk to them yet? If yes what did they say. If not, why not? Afraid that the bar they sell can be used and is very safe?

Also, does not the racing industry constantly update their findings concerning safety practices? Maybe, just maybe, their findings are changing on practices concerning harnesses, lap belt, ect...?
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  #18  
Old 02-11-2012, 11:25 PM
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momma said you can't fix stupid no matter how hard you try.........I'm talking to people who aren't.... if this applies to you then rock on......if not.........can't help you
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  #19  
Old 02-11-2012, 11:50 PM
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yet another thread with an "expert" who will not provide ANY evidence to back what he claims. If that ruffles your feathers you know what to do if not rock on.
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Originally Posted by hardingsan View Post
why do i have a feeling that's gonna make it into someone's sig...?

I have neither of these cars anymore. 2014 Jetta Hybrid, 2014 Countryman All4 S now.
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  #20  
Old 02-11-2012, 11:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by el diablito View Post
momma said you can't fix stupid no matter how hard you try.........I'm talking to people who aren't.... if this applies to you then rock on......if not.........can't help you
Considering how often you put people down, you'd think that you'd be better at it. That was a terribly executed insult.
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  #21  
Old 02-12-2012, 12:26 AM
llabmik2 llabmik2 is offline
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Harness in a car with out a cage.....STUPID. Heres why

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/201...-safety-facts/



I have a car that came STOCK with seats that are made for racing and harness, does it have any NOPE. Will it have any...NOPE not unless I want to wear a helmet everytime I drive the car.
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  #22  
Old 02-12-2012, 12:48 AM
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Quote:
Not a single person has pointed to the WHY anyone is risking their life and /or endangering others by not following racing governing body rules on a street car.

A comment that you will "snap your neck and back" if you use a race harness on a street car with the belts above shoulder height in violation of race rules does not EXPLAIN WHY doing so will kill or injure you in a STREET car.
Why...The horizontal or up to 20 degrees down is to hold down in the seat. A belt that comes from above would allow you your torso to move upwards in the event of an incident.

Greater than 20 degrees can pull to far back putting to much pressure on shoulders.

Watch the videos on the Schroth site for details please.

Quote:
Making statements as they are fact like "you will die if you use plastidip" without at least citing a source makes the discussion half-assed at best (even if you should die for using plastidip). A link to a rule isn't citing a source on a reason a safety device has to be a certain way, sorry it's just pointing to a rule that is specific to that organization.
You read what I wrote and put in absolutes. Most likely you will not die, but there is the potential; for a more serious injury when using the product outside of the manufacturers specifications.

Quote:
Further not a single one of the naysayers even addressed Chase's comment regarding the use of a belt system with some stretch.
The RJS Belts in question in this care do not have stretch built in. The "street-able" Schroth does. And Schroth does put the same mounting specs in the directions for the street-able versions they sell. These belts have passed NHSTA testing and have FMVSS 209 approval. Furthermore they really should be used with a HANS type device and helmet in track or AutoX conditions.

Quote:
I am also noticing the obvious disregard of the design of a typical shoulder belt as found in our cars from the factory. (as proven to not kill you by the USDOT, NHTSA and other organizations) A system which unless you are over 6'3" cannot be routed in such a way as to be even with or up to 20 degrees below the shoulder height. Is there some give in the shoulder belt in your car? Yes, normally but the acceleration of an impact locks them tight giving you very limited forward motion before locking. (Kind of like a harness system with some stretch.)
Seatbelts that are in our cars today are a result of lot of compromise. One of those is that there are some people that are to tall and others that are to short for the belts from the factory to work as truly intended.

Ideally a properly designed 4 or 5 belt system would be best in our passenger Vehicles. The 3 point belt is a compromise here too, can you image how many more people would not use seat-belts if they had put on a harness to drive down to the 7-11?

Some studies on 3 vs 4 point systems

http://www.umtri.umich.edu/content.php?id=936

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17311168

Quote:
So in the interest of racing safety........

To Jan and Nathan, or anyone racing their car:

Did you remove or alter the air bag system in your STREET MINI?

If answer no: Then you have "created" an unsafe condition because the MINIs air bag system was not designed for roll bars, harness bars.... etc.
Yes, the airbag system in my car has been disabled. Passengers are warned ahead of time. I also do not use the 6 point harness in street driving. due to the inability to turn to look to the left or right. On a track this limited ability is not an issue, you don't have cross streets with stop signs.

Quote:
Nathan or Jan, did either of you contact HARDBARUSA and talk to them yet? If yes what did they say. If not, why not? Afraid that the bar they sell can be used and is very safe?
No, and I do not plan on it. Its not the product I am railing about, it's the way the product was used. It is quite possible to use a hard bar with the seats mounted in the proper locations to be able to have the angles proper. I have seen it first hand in 2 MINIs. One of these MINIs passed tech inspection for BMW CCA Race school, not just a HPDE but a real on race school.

Hardbar provides a product. It's up to the end user to use the product properly.

Quote:
Also, does not the racing industry constantly update their findings concerning safety practices? Maybe, just maybe, their findings are changing on practices concerning harnesses, lap belt, ect...?
Of course they do, but when the competing manufacturers and the many different sanctioning bodies all have the same specs one has tends to think they have it right. A lot of testing has gone into how to use these types of belt systems properly. If it was not important to specify how to mount belts properly why would all manufacturers and the many different sanctioning bodies provide such specific instructions.
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  #23  
Old 02-12-2012, 01:04 AM
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Ok now it's a discussion thanks for the clarifications. Now the internet lazy will have at least some info beyond the "bad idea" kind of posts some think are sufficient in a discussion thread.

Upward movement is really only an issue in a rollover you're crash no? That would explain how a three points system could be considered a compromise that was acceptable.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hardingsan View Post
why do i have a feeling that's gonna make it into someone's sig...?

I have neither of these cars anymore. 2014 Jetta Hybrid, 2014 Countryman All4 S now.
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  #24  
Old 02-12-2012, 01:08 AM
jiminni jiminni is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by llabmik2 View Post
Harness in a car with out a cage.....STUPID. Heres why

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/201...-safety-facts/



I have a car that came STOCK with seats that are made for racing and harness, does it have any NOPE. Will it have any...NOPE not unless I want to wear a helmet everytime I drive the car.
Not sure what the point of that post is? What I gather is, that you either have a "race" car or a "street" car. There are some here claiming they have both in the same car, now that's stupid.
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  #25  
Old 02-12-2012, 01:16 AM
llabmik2 llabmik2 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jiminni View Post
Not sure what the point of that post is? What I gather is, that you either have a "race" car or a "street" car. There are some here claiming they have both in the same car, now that's stupid.
How do you not get the point? Putting harness in a STREET CAR is stupid if you do not have a cage and you are not going to wear a helmet at all times with said cage.....Not to mention the fact that you have seats that are not built for them.



The link was for a better explanation then I cared to do.
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  #26  
Old 02-12-2012, 01:23 AM
jiminni jiminni is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gnatster View Post







It's not the product I'm railing about, it's the way the product was used.

Hardbar provides a product. It's up to the end user to use the product properly.



Of course they do, but when the competing manufacturers and the many different sanctioning bodies all have the same specs one has tends to think they have it right. .
So you are railing about "one" picture you saw of Lynn's car? In talking with Lynn about this, if you care to notice, look how close the headrest of the seat is to the bar, the seat was completely pushed back at the taking of this picture, which anyone could tell that you don't drive with the seat back that far. Lynn went back and put the seat into a race style driving position and guess what...yea you know....perfect So instead of posting in hate and ridicule, why not sit and think a little before posting

And about the second statement....seems like the way all the sanctioning bodies changed their tune completely after the untimely death of Dale Earnhart a few years ago, and they can very well change it completely again.
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  #27  
Old 02-12-2012, 01:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by llabmik2 View Post
How do you not get the point? Putting harness in a STREET CAR is stupid if you do not have a cage and you are not going to wear a helmet at all times with said cage.....Not to mention the fact that you have seats that are not built for them.



The link was for a better explanation then I cared to do.
Yea that was a great google search And what else was funny....if you clicked on the harness link in that article, it takes you to a place to buy harness bars for a street car....
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  #28  
Old 02-12-2012, 01:31 AM
llabmik2 llabmik2 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jiminni View Post
Yea that was a great google search And what else was funny....if you clicked on the harness link in that article, it takes you to a place to buy harness bars for a street car....
Yeah i googled it quick, so I didnt have to type it. Who gives a fuck....The link that's on the page going to a harness bar that's called advertising. Its a simple fact that a car with a harness keeping you in the seat straight up, in a roll over you are going to die if the roof comes in to tell you hello. All that weight and all that force is now going to be on your head. That was my point.
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  #29  
Old 02-12-2012, 01:42 AM
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Good point on the cage. Only two sentences to make it with the link too.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hardingsan View Post
why do i have a feeling that's gonna make it into someone's sig...?

I have neither of these cars anymore. 2014 Jetta Hybrid, 2014 Countryman All4 S now.
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  #30  
Old 02-12-2012, 01:48 AM
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Quote:
And about the second statement....seems like the way all the sanctioning bodies changed their tune completely after the untimely death of Dale Earnhart a few years ago, and they can very well change it completely again.
Yes, it is true there was a somewhat wholesale change at the time. The HANS type devices were made mandatory instead of optional. The cause in the accident that lead to the death of Dale Earnhart is still shrouded in mystery. But more sources than not point to Earnhart wearing the belts improperly.
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