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  #166  
Old 06-25-2009, 09:42 PM
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As I progress through to get my Ph. D., that's when I'll truly become an "expert." I don't think anyone can really be considered an "expert" in a field as general as any bachelor's degree major (granted, that really depends on the major). It's really just too general.
Well yah of course. As I mentioned, you can continue narrowing it down further all the way to PHD. I agree fully that a bachelors doesn't make you an expert.

My first sentence was just to say that some colleges are different than others in response to deviant's statement, "how truly stupid some of the people in my college classes".

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Didn't you (or was it someone else) earlier state that you didn't like the government needing to be as big as it was but because people would choose to be greedy it needed the government's intervention to protect us? If the people we're electing are no more moral than what you expect the government to protect us from what is it accomplishing?
I don't feel that a few moral blunders (70% of which are guys cheating on their wives, unrelated to taxes) from a few politicians is enough to taint the ability of an entire government to do the job that I was proposing earlier (distributing taxes).
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  #167  
Old 06-25-2009, 09:50 PM
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Well yah of course. As I mentioned, you can continue narrowing it down further all the way to PHD. I agree fully that a bachelors doesn't make you an expert.

My first sentence was just to say that some colleges are different than others in response to deviant's statement, "how truly stupid some of the people in my college classes".
Gotcha.



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I don't feel that a few moral blunders (70% of which are guys cheating on their wives, unrelated to taxes) from a few politicians is enough to taint the ability of an entire government to do the job that I was proposing earlier (distributing taxes).
Exactly my point.
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  #168  
Old 06-26-2009, 12:32 AM
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Edit: I mean, can you even blame him for that? Wouldn't you if you were married to Hillary?
I would've avoided that trap to begin with.

I just expect politicians to have similar standards to what I hold myself to. Nobody's vice free I suppose but I want a strong individual in office. Sure the economy seemed great under Clinton, but it was the buildup to the unsustainable situation we're in now. We didn't have "wars" but we did have three different terrorist attacks, only one of which was committed by a US citizen, that took the lives of US citizens, the whole Waco incident and we did launch missiles to blow up some pharmaceutical companies in Iraq. The one thing Clinton did which I strongly, and I can't emphasize how strongly I approve of this, is the balanced budget.
The acceptance of a complete lack of a moral compass and this willingness to forgive gross flaws of character is a huge problem, one thing I can give Obama over some previous Presidents is he has an obvious strong sense of family and that's something I can appreciate.
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  #169  
Old 06-26-2009, 02:41 AM
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I'm not saying the country should be run by the average joe. I am saying the country should be run as it was formed and intended to be run.

Right now it is not. Read the Federalist papers. Beyond the Constitution and its very precise wording (despite recent claims its a living document open to interpretation) the Federalist papers were written by the founding fathers to the loose collection of states to explain the purpose of having this new central government and what it was supposed to have the power to do and not do.

And as far as letting people who have no concept of how our government is supposed to work call the shots. Well that is what is going on now isn't it? People who have no idea about economics, our government system, taxes and national security/global issues fall for slick packaging and well written speeches all the time. When someone comes along and says hey ummm wait a sec that isn't right they get branded as fear mongers, racists, white establishment old boys club elitists, whatever.

But then that is getting off onto another question of should you be allowed to vote if you can't demonstrate a basic knowledge of the system and the candidates positions. Something easily done without exposing ideology of voters. That of course would lead to "disenfranchisement" of voters and hue and cry that it is "unfair" when in reality it would be the best thing for the nation imho.

I used to work union and vote straight Democrat. Learned the hard way that was a waste. Are the current or recent Republican offerings any better? Not really. Do you go for a third party? Libertarian? Green? I don't think so, not if you want to enact change in the government. Splitting off from a group that is close to your views because they aren't in line completely is stupid and childish so if you voted Green, Libertarian or any other third/fourth party sorry but its true you wasted your already pretty insignificant vote and voice. Change the party closest to your views through activism and spreading awareness.

The founding fathers were low taxes, states rights, limited federal government guys. I tend to think they had it right based off the fact that it worked for almost a century and a half unmolested. Let each state decide if they want gay marriage. If you want it where you live get your state to make it law or move to one that allows it, don't force states that don't want it to allow it through judicial fiat. That is a breach of checks and balances and can be a double edged sword. As such it should not be allowed.
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  #170  
Old 06-26-2009, 03:47 AM
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Do you go for a third party? Libertarian? Green? I don't think so, not if you want to enact change in the government. Splitting off from a group that is close to your views because they aren't in line completely is stupid and childish so if you voted Green, Libertarian or any other third/fourth party sorry but its true you wasted your already pretty insignificant vote and voice. Change the party closest to your views through activism and spreading awareness.
Unfortuneately both parties are equally far from my views, just in different aspects. I voted libertarian this last election simply because I knew a vote for either candidate would result in something like what's happening. I'd rather be able to show a growing trend towards a third party in the hopes that either it will gain enough support that people like you won't view supporting it with a vote as a waste or that the other two major parties will wake up and take notice. My activism and spreading of awareness will hopefully educate others and help the other parties, but my vote is me instituting my ideals and any change to the other parties will have to occur before they get my vote.
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  #171  
Old 06-26-2009, 03:53 AM
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"Government big enough to supply everything you need is big enough to take everything you have. The course of history shows us that as a government grows, Liberty decreases."

- Thomas Jefferson
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  #172  
Old 06-26-2009, 04:10 AM
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"You cannot bring about prosperity by discouraging thrift. You cannot strengthen the weak by weakening the strong. You cannot help the wage earner by pulling down the wage payer. You cannot further the brotherhood of man by encouraging class hatred. You cannot help the poor by destroying the rich. You cannot keep out of trouble by spending more than you earn. You cannot build character and courage by taking away man's initiative and independence. You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they could and should do for themselves."
-Abraham Lincoln
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  #173  
Old 06-26-2009, 04:50 AM
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"The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain occasions that I wish it to be always kept alive."

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  #174  
Old 06-26-2009, 05:10 AM
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  #175  
Old 06-26-2009, 05:33 AM
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  #176  
Old 06-26-2009, 05:34 AM
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I am saying the country should be run as it was formed and intended to be run.

Right now it is not. Read the Federalist papers. Beyond the Constitution and its very precise wording (despite recent claims its a living document open to interpretation) the Federalist papers were written by the founding fathers to the loose collection of states to explain the purpose of having this new central government and what it was supposed to have the power to do and not do.
This will be a common argument of mine, but I don't believe that the statements of the founding fathers should hold much value in today's society's actions. It's history. It's worth reading. It's worth learning from. It's worth taking into consideration. It's not something we should return to.

It worked then, but much much more is needed now. Times have changed too drastically. They had no idea things would be like they are now. They never intended people to be making hundreds of Millions and they were probably too idealistic to imagine that people would be starving at the same time that someone was making millions of dollars.


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Read the Federalist papers.
Trust me. I've read the federalist papers numerous times, I've been through Locke, I've exhausted Mill's 'On Liberty', and I've made my way through DeTocqueville. The old stuff is great for learning, but it needs to be adapted to modern times....and in often cases it needs to be drastically changed. Things were way different back then, and they never expected it to become what it has.


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And as far as letting people who have no concept of how our government is supposed to work call the shots. Well that is what is going on now isn't it?
No.

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But then that is getting off onto another question of should you be allowed to vote if you can't demonstrate a basic knowledge of the system and the candidates positions. Something easily done without exposing ideology of voters. That of course would lead to "disenfranchisement" of voters and hue and cry that it is "unfair" when in reality it would be the best thing for the nation imho.
I'm right there with you. I don't think most of America should be allowed to vote. The concept that an illiterate american's vote counts the same as an intelligent politcal PHD holding citizen's vote is ridiculous.

I acknowledge that this is extreme and in most cases an acid test....

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Originally Posted by AllBlack05S View Post
The founding fathers were low taxes, states rights, limited federal government guys. I tend to think they had it right based off the fact that it worked for almost a century and a half unmolested. Let each state decide if they want gay marriage. If you want it where you live get your state to make it law or move to one that allows it, don't force states that don't want it to allow it through judicial fiat. That is a breach of checks and balances and can be a double edged sword. As such it should not be allowed.
First, governments (national or local) should have no call on anything as moral as Gay marriage. Government is about ethics (murder) and politics (taxes)...not about things that deal solely in beliefs and morals. Just my opinion.

Second, the founding fathers came in a time where we lived in log cabins and thought that slavery was a great idea. Thinking their concepts have any bearing in current day society is goofy. Things have changed far too much for their actions to be much more than a nice philosophy to study.
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  #177  
Old 06-26-2009, 05:41 AM
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"I disagree entirely with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."
-Voltaire
Touché.

Sorry had to throw that in there amongst the quotes.
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  #178  
Old 06-26-2009, 05:42 AM
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But then you get to the point where you're also harming the people who really need the welfare....single mothers for example.
This statement is buried a few pages back, but I completely disagree. I was raised (primarily) by a single mom in California, where cost of living is ridiculous compared to most of the rest of the country, and she did it without ever drawing a welfare check or food stamps. She worked in packaging at a cosmetics company, then when we moved to Northern California, she busted her ass working at a tomato cannery every summer. In the off-season she would clean houses to make ends meet. It wasn't easy, but her work ethic is seriously awe-inspiring, so she got it done. Being a single mother does NOT get a pass from me.
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  #179  
Old 06-26-2009, 05:50 AM
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This statement is buried a few pages back, but I completely disagree. I was raised (primarily) by a single mom in California, where cost of living is ridiculous compared to most of the rest of the country, and she did it without ever drawing a welfare check or food stamps. She worked in packaging at a cosmetics company, then when we moved to Northern California, she busted her ass working at a tomato cannery every summer. In the off-season she would clean houses to make ends meet. It wasn't easy, but her work ethic is seriously awe-inspiring, so she got it done. Being a single mother does NOT get a pass from me.
Same here.
My mother was in the middle of a divorce, working as a flight attendant, all on her own ( with zero help fromk her family of any kind), while she was pregnant with me, and throughout my early childehood. She did that for years and raised me to be the best i can be. She couldnt have provided a more fantastic childehood for me. She could not have been a more inspiring parent.
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  #180  
Old 06-26-2009, 05:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Rally View Post
This will be a common argument of mine, but I don't believe that the statements of the founding fathers should hold much value in today's society's actions. It's history. It's worth reading. It's worth learning from. It's worth taking into consideration. It's not something we should return to.

It worked then, but much much more is needed now. Times have changed too drastically. They had no idea things would be like they are now. They never intended people to be making hundreds of Millions and they were probably too idealistic to imagine that people would be starving at the same time that someone was making millions of dollars.




Trust me. I've read the federalist papers numerous times, I've been through Locke, I've exhausted Mill's 'On Liberty', and I've made my way through DeTocqueville. The old stuff is great for learning, but it needs to be adapted to modern times....and in often cases it needs to be drastically changed. Things were way different back then, and they never expected it to become what it has.




No.



I'm right there with you. I don't think most of America should be allowed to vote. The concept that an illiterate american's vote counts the same as an intelligent politcal PHD holding citizen's vote is ridiculous.

I acknowledge that this is extreme and in most cases an acid test....



First, governments (national or local) should have no call on anything as moral as Gay marriage. Government is about ethics (murder) and politics (taxes)...not about things that deal solely in beliefs and morals. Just my opinion.

Second, the founding fathers came in a time where we lived in log cabins and thought that slavery was a great idea. Thinking their concepts have any bearing in current day society is goofy. Things have changed far too much for their actions to be much more than a nice philosophy to study.
"Don't interfere with anything in the Constitution. That must be maintained, for it is the only safeguard of our LIBERTIES."

-Abraham Lincoln
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