motoring|underground  
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Blog

OTLounge Anything and everything NOT having to do with cars... for better or for worse!

Go Back   motoring|underground > The Overlook > OTLounge
Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #181  
Old 06-26-2009, 06:20 AM
Deviant Deviant is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: here and there
Posts: 1,909
Send a message via AIM to Deviant
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by minimark View Post
"Don't interfere with anything in the Constitution. That must be maintained, for it is the only safeguard of our LIBERTIES."

-Abraham Lincoln
Excellent! No matter how much things change there's a few simple things that remain the federal governments responsibility. Everything not outlined as their responsibility in the Constitution defaults down to state and individual responsibilities as per the 10th amendment. The founding fathers were truly idealistic and quite creative. The word 'internet' and 'atheist' don't appear in any of their documents and they probably never thought of either of them but the Constitution applies to both of them. The word Airplane doesn't appear in the Constitution but constitutional issues regarding interstate commerce and airlines, as well as airport security, have both been determined through the writings in the constitution. It surely is a living document, one that's difficult to change in and of itself but one that was written in such a way that even as the world around it changes, it's language and concept still apply.
Reply With Quote
  #182  
Old 06-26-2009, 06:51 AM
AllBlack05S's Avatar
AllBlack05S AllBlack05S is offline
Y Rated - 186 mph
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Bartlett Il
Posts: 6,322
Send a message via AIM to AllBlack05S
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rally View Post
This will be a common argument of mine, but I don't believe that the statements of the founding fathers should hold much value in today's society's actions. It's history. It's worth reading. It's worth learning from. It's worth taking into consideration. It's not something we should return to.
Why? The core values of life liberty and personal freedom without the onerous yoke of an overbearing government dictating what you can and cannot do hasn't changed. Yes the application has but it still is there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rally View Post
It worked then, but much much more is needed now. Times have changed too drastically. They had no idea things would be like they are now. They never intended people to be making hundreds of Millions and they were probably too idealistic to imagine that people would be starving at the same time that someone was making millions of dollars.
Yeah I suppose there wasn't an aristocracy and royalty enslaving people and keeping the poor poor and starving.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Rally View Post
Trust me. I've read the federalist papers numerous times, I've been through Locke, I've exhausted Mill's 'On Liberty', and I've made my way through DeTocqueville. The old stuff is great for learning, but it needs to be adapted to modern times....and in often cases it needs to be drastically changed. Things were way different back then, and they never expected it to become what it has.
True they never did expect what has happened. They had more faith that the people would remember that this country was founded as a direct result of people trying to be free from too much governance and would stop it from happening again. I personally disagree there is much adaptation needed. Just a clearer understanding of the result of applying the basics of freedom and liberty tempered with personal responsibility.

The trick is those who wish for power managed to use the guise of "wanting to help people" to snow those who mean well into blindly supporting them. It was easy too because people do not want to believe a politician would deliberately create a dependency underclass using substandard education (that they always are trying to fix even though they created it and never change anything) and free money via welfare to ensure their own continued power.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Rally View Post
No.
Actually it is. The very uneducated neither of us want making decisions elected our current leader based on skin color and some pretty speech delivery.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Rally View Post
I'm right there with you. I don't think most of America should be allowed to vote. The concept that an illiterate american's vote counts the same as an intelligent politcal PHD holding citizen's vote is ridiculous.

I acknowledge that this is extreme and in most cases an acid test....
Its not that extreme you just have to put it in a way that makes sense to the morons. That and counteract the push from the entrenched in power (special interest groups-including unions, career politicians etc.) to stop it. That would be the harder part because you would have the whole of NBC/MSNBC etc weighing in against you as a radical because they got the memo from B.O.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Rally View Post
First, governments (national or local) should have no call on anything as moral as Gay marriage. Government is about ethics (murder) and politics (taxes)...not about things that deal solely in beliefs and morals. Just my opinion.
As far as gay marriage is concerned I could care less. It should solely be a civil issue best handled by local governments. I will not however stand for anyone ramming it down my throat in my church through legal action because they want to be gay and catholic. you cannot be both. if a church wants to alter its dogma to allow it cool fine by them that's nobodies business but theirs.

Federal government should stay out of anything smaller in scale than foreign trade, military protection of the country, interstate highway maintenance and interstate commerce regulation (i.e. banking and prohibiting one state from taxing good produced and sold in another) States should do what they do now and pick up the slack of taking care of the people in their borders welfare (providing education, access to health care-not paying for it just ensuring they can get it, employee and employer protection etc.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rally View Post
Second, the founding fathers came in a time where we lived in log cabins and thought that slavery was a great idea. Thinking their concepts have any bearing in current day society is goofy. Things have changed far too much for their actions to be much more than a nice philosophy to study.
Only if you think the totality of their concepts is people living in log cabins and owning slaves. If it is (which I know it isn't) then your view is goofy. The very actions of forming the federal government in the way they did ensured that slavery would be abolished. The concept that God gave man the right to live be free and pursue that which makes him happy cannot be brushed off as a nice philosophy study because to do so misses the core of it. Those rights are not issued by the Constitution or the Federalist papers or any Law that any man has ever written and as such cannot be taken away by any law man can write while the founding documents are treated as the basis of our nation they still are.


The only problem I have with Libertarians in general is this:They want less government but every new freedom they suggest will lead to more. The example I like to use is marijuana. If it is legalized it then has to be monitored, meet government standards for safety etc. (which will bring about larger government). It sounds nice but most libertarians I know don't think it through they just want "their freedom" whatever vice that happens to be.

I have heard of them described as Republicans that want to get stoned and Democrats that took an economics course. I think they're both funny and kinda accurate.

I know the point of the third party to draw attention but if those millions of libertarians had stayed in the republican party and worked to change it we might still have bigger government but we would at least have lower taxes generating revenue into federal coffers instead of 7 trillion in deficits by 2019.
__________________
—Eric
Quote:
Originally Posted by hardingsan View Post
why do i have a feeling that's gonna make it into someone's sig...?

I have neither of these cars anymore. 2014 Jetta Hybrid, 2014 Countryman All4 S now.
Reply With Quote
  #183  
Old 06-26-2009, 12:49 PM
minimark minimark is offline
Y Rated - 186 mph
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Winston-Salem,NC
Posts: 1,758
Default

"That men do not learn much from the lessons of history is the most important of all lessons that history has to teach us."

-Aldous Huxley
Reply With Quote
  #184  
Old 06-27-2009, 02:47 AM
AllBlack05S's Avatar
AllBlack05S AllBlack05S is offline
Y Rated - 186 mph
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Bartlett Il
Posts: 6,322
Send a message via AIM to AllBlack05S
Default

"Cap and Trade FTW! woo hoo lets kick the economy further down the slope. **** America"

- House Democrats
__________________
—Eric
Quote:
Originally Posted by hardingsan View Post
why do i have a feeling that's gonna make it into someone's sig...?

I have neither of these cars anymore. 2014 Jetta Hybrid, 2014 Countryman All4 S now.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


CURRENT MOON

All times are GMT. The time now is 05:05 AM.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
©2005 motoring|underground, all rights reserved.