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  #16  
Old 08-25-2012, 01:51 AM
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Leaving the issue of USADA's authority to strip titles awarded in Europe to the side for the moment...

The futility of this is what gets me. Armstrong retired in 2005. 7 years after the fact, when asked by NPR today, the head of the USADA Travis Tygart, could not answer a simple question about what physical evidence implicated Armstrong. It was all about witness testimony (hearsay evidence) from former riders who have already admitted they were dirty themselves.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not under any illusions that Armstrong was clean.

I do however expect better evidence than this when it comes to stripping a career's worth of accomplishments away from a World Class athlete.

My other problem here has to do with how dirty the rest of the field was during the Armstrong era at the TdF. The graphic below shows the proven and acknowledged dirty riders in dark grey background and the supposedly clean (not yet dirty?) racer with a white background.

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Well over a decade since his first supposedly tainted win and we have hearsay evidence that Armstrong was doping. Fine.

What was the point of pressing this? Armstrong has long ago had several "*" attached to his TdF wins due to suspicion. Stripping his titles does precious little in my eyes. Okay then who was the first USADA approved "clean" athlete? The 5th, 6th, or the 8th athlete in the race? Is it only a matter of time before those riders are implicated?

I'm sorry but 5th, 6th, and 8th place does not a winner make when the entire field is under suspicion. USADA's actions in 2012 are doing nothing to improve our confidence in who won the 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, and 2005.
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  #17  
Old 08-25-2012, 02:44 AM
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I think it's because some people don't want Lance to get away with it, period. There is 10 years of information, 10 years of people that worked with him, or for him. Believe them or not but nothing was out there years ago, things have changed. Connect the dots. Am I the only one who feels it suspicious that Lance suddenly, after so many years of fighting so hard, gives up, right when it counts? So instead of going to arbitration, and hearing what USADA considers their case, and us hearing their case, he drops out. And guess what, we'll never hear that story. How convenient. Doesn't have to defend evidence that could open the eyes of many that don't want to hear about Lance possibly doping for all those years. Instead he turns into a martyr.
I don't buy the poor Lance thing. He's overcome things that most of us couldn't, and has talents and physical advantages that none of us will ever have. I've respected that, but I don't buy the "I've never failed a test" as evidence that he did everything clean.
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  #18  
Old 08-25-2012, 04:16 AM
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Trying to strip the titles is B.S. trying to tarnish his name to make a point is B.S.

If they have proof show it period.
Then show the same results of blood doping evidence on every rider in every race they want to say he was doping in. Then some lay about retired after fifteen consecutive bottom thirty finishes at the TDF former cyclist can be the first guy to win 15 TDF in a row even though he now weighs 300 pounds and beats his wife and kids because he failed at every attempt.

They won't because then they will be shown to have been a completely ineffective authority on preventing doping. Honestly they have already admitted to that if they didn't or couldn't prove it back when he was racing.

Yeah he was an arrogant jackass, everyone knows it. So a bunch of his former team mates who never finished first and may have an axe to grind with the prima donna glory boy all want to say he doped because they got caught doping. Proof or STFU plain and simple.

I bet they never just come out and make a press release with their "proof".
Who if they were in Lance Armstrong's position where the Foundation and raising money for the fight against cancer was their sole public focus and were tired of arguing over the cycling/were they doping or not thing, from a decade ago, can honestly say they wouldn't one day just say "fuck it. whatever. I have shit to do, fuck off".

I know I would.
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  #19  
Old 08-25-2012, 08:31 AM
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I still admire what he accomplished. Kept an eye on almost every stage result in those triumphant years. To have come back from cancer like that gave hope to many patients. His contention has always been consistent- he passed practically all tests he was subjected to in those competing years. Indeed, cycling as a sport has been stained. One thing still can't be denied- he won those TdF titles against all the proven doping rivals & clean ones, if there were any, 7 times! Cycling & F1 are parallel sports. The latter has science put into the car. The former has it infused into the rider. Eventually, cycling might just end up banning & reversing restrictions just like F1. Remember their ban on computers, communications, CVT, etc? Now, for USADA's delayed action?
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  #20  
Old 08-25-2012, 05:31 PM
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So if he did get around the system, wouldn't it be too fair to say most others did to? If so, then the playing field was/is level, and he's a bad ass. ride on

Is it right to ride doped, no. Is it reality, yes.
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  #21  
Old 08-25-2012, 05:46 PM
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I have an idea. Have them figure out what the time advantage from doping is, then allow doping and tack the time onto the end of the riders' times. Then you can have a "doped" class and a "natural" class.

For natural class riders, have a much, much lower VO2 (or whatever they use) allowable threshold than they have now, so even if the natural riders try to sneak in some doping, they won't be able to gain much from it.

Probably have riders dropping dead right and left from ODs, heh.
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  #22  
Old 08-25-2012, 06:31 PM
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Damn fine idea.
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  #23  
Old 08-25-2012, 08:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnJohn View Post
So if he did get around the system, wouldn't it be too fair to say most others did to? If so, then the playing field was/is level, and he's a bad ass.
yes that's probably why Chris Carmichael just said "I'm convinced he was the best athlete" without saying that he's sure Lance never doped. Everyone doping and some not getting caught still makes doping ok?

http://velonews.competitor.com/2012/...athlete_236067

really, the best athlete
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  #24  
Old 08-25-2012, 11:23 PM
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Couldn't have happened to a nicer douche bag.
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  #25  
Old 08-26-2012, 04:06 AM
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He just finished the Colorado Power of Four mt bike race 2nd. You can't deny how physiologically gifted the guy is. Douche bag/doper or not, he remains a hero to many.
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  #26  
Old 08-26-2012, 04:57 AM
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Now someone has hinted that Wiggins and Froome are doped.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/repo...0&amp;ns_fee=0

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"Work together with Antoine Vayer [LeMond columnist], the performance specialist, helped show the implausibility of the power generated in watts on the climbs. Moreover, it is interesting to note that the UCI has banned the publication of such real-time statistics in 2012. And we can understand why when you see that the power production by [Bradley] Wiggins and [Chris] Froome (first and second of the Tour) is comparable to the turbulent times of the late 1990s and early 2000s."
Strange times.
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  #27  
Old 08-27-2012, 10:17 PM
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and another one from Lance's team admits to doping, and never failed any tests.

http://velonews.competitor.com/2012/...ossible_234243
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  #28  
Old 08-28-2012, 12:38 PM
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He just wants a piece of Lance's limelight
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  #29  
Old 09-06-2012, 04:01 PM
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"The level playing field of doping is a total myth"

http://velonews.competitor.com/2012/...authors_237632
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  #30  
Old 09-06-2012, 11:35 PM
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When a person, like Tyler Hamilton, lies to everyone for 15 years then all of a sudden comes clean (with a book deal that he will profit from) it is very difficult to believe anything he says. Especially when the "facts" verifying what Hamilton says are statements from other liars.

I would like to believe that Armstrong did not dope but I, and just about everyone else, will not know with 100% certainty and we may never know. I think it's funny when random unimportant people put so much effort into trying to prove or arguing about whether he did or didn't dope (not necessarily here, this is pretty civil, but on cycling forums and amongst cyclists).
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